Dec 2005 ------------------------------------------ After seeing others relate to their experiences with Overdrive transmissions, here are some opinions, on both types =============================================== //////////// Hello Everyone- I am installing a 700R4 into my '62 Hawk GT. I have found a deal for a rebuilt/improved 700R4 with free shipping and torque converter. The transmission is approximately equal to the level one transmission sold on Bow Tie transmissions website, same price too. - I was considering a 200R4, but most of the adapters seem to have been set up with the 700R4 in mind. The 200R4 was recommended to me because it's shifting would be better suited for a non-racing project. - Originally I was going to have an experienced Stude customizer do this install. That was before the money ran out. - I am going with the 700R4 partly because this deal has the shipping and the converter included. Also the two Stude adapter kits available do not specifically list the 200R4 as the supported configuration. And most of the lessons learned from experience posted on the NG are from 700R4 installs. I do not want to be the tester for a new transmission type. - The transmission re-builder can: - set up the shift points to my needs : a stock, a "crisp", or crazy way too firm shift. - setup the transmission lock up so that it will not need a kit that hooks to the tail light. - So anyone with shift point suggestions? And what are the plus of having the lock up release be hydraulic rather than electrically triggered? Anyone done a 200R4 install with the current configuration of Steeltech or Myers adapters? - Thanks in advance, Tony in Austin /////////// 700R4 ----------------- If you have to do that conversion, use Jon Myer's adapter. It is a great looking piece of work and have only heard great things about it. As far as the 700R4 goes, it is not my favorite transmission. Just had THREE of the put in my pickup in the last 10 days...... They are, always have been, and always will be pure crap in my opinion. I have yet to own a 700R4 transmission that was worth 2 cents in hell... daytona62@comcast.net ---------------- The 700R4 is a GOOD transmission that can be rebuilt to be alot better (stronger). If you've gone thru three in 10 days maybe its the rebuilder or supplier. I had the first year 700R4 (84) that was rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder and put another 100K in front of a slightly warmed 355ci in a heavy read ex-cop car caprice. I currently run a daily driver 94 9C1 (cop car package) that went thru the original xmission right @ 49K while in police service. Was then replaced and make 100k 75k while in service and 25k with me as the driver. Same builder that built the '84 went thru the 94 and its @ appx 60k. the 94 is actually a 4L60E which is a 700R4 that is computer controlled. I also run a 93 K2500 pickup with a 350ci that got 175K on the 1st transmission. I rebuilt this one myself and its got 20k on it with no problems so far. The best thing you can do to these xmissions is install a large oil cooler, and if you tow with it install a oil temp gauge and keep an eye on the temp while towing. There are alot of upgrades you can do to the trans, there are 5 pinion planetarys available, hardend shafts, etc, etc, etc. Is it the best xmission in the world? NO! Would I put one behind a 500 ft.lb torquer. NO!!! Would I put one in a Rod or light truck you bet ya!!! For your swap in the car, I'd recommend a towing shift kit, russandsharon@ev1.net ----------------- Own 2 Suburbans,both swap meet/junkyard haulers that get heavily loaded consistently during the summer season. 310,000 miles on the '89 (1/2t with 1t rear springs)that obe had a rebuild around 220,000 none since.The '92(1/2t) has only 215,000 miles and hasnt been touched.Service both trans Fall and Spring and dont use the o/d when loaded unless running the freeways in the flat states.Both are 2-wheel drive. rupp99@citlink.net ------------------- The first one was in a '92 1/2 ton Suburban pulling an empty car trailer on flat ground...poof.... fire.... bad words being said... Every trans shop in town told me if I continue to pull a trailer with this transmission, I'll be back. The second, third, and fourth ones are in a '91 GMC 3/4 ton that has never pulled a trailer in its life.... poof.... lots of smoke.... bad words being said..... I am just tired of saying all those bad words and having them always go poof when it is below freezing and standing there waiting for the smoke to clear. I am using the same rebuilder I have been using for 25 years and the 700's are the only transmission I have ever had fail from them. I really don't believe it is a supplier issue. --------------- This past summer, I installed a 700R4 in my 64 Avanti using Steeltech's adapter. It was trouble from the start. I cannot recommend the Steeltech adapter. Dave LeVesque told me all updates were incorporated, but they obviously were not - very disappointing. I have not publicly mentioned this before as it's not my intention to smear Dave. But you are in the same position I was in a year ago asking for advice from those that had been there. Whoever you consider for the adapter, make sure they are in stock and that you are getting the latest revision. As far as the transmission goes, since you don't have the "X" frame member to deal with, fitment should be no problem - the 200-4R is narrower than the 700-R4. Both, if rebuilt right, will give you good service. My 90 Avanti has the 200-4R and now the 64 Avanti has the 700R4. Other comments are correct, the 200-4R has better shift points for daily driving. And Ernie is spot on advising you to dial in the TV cable properly - absolutely imperative. I used a LOKAR shifter adapter and Dipstick. The TV Cable and Transmission Adapters came from Bowtie Overdrives. I would imagine in a GT you won't have problems routing the exhaust - count yourself lucky. All that being said, having the lower first gear and overdrive really mades a great difference in driveability of these older cars. You have more pop off the line and quiet cruising, plus much better gas mileage. Worth the effort for anyone wanting a daily driver, or close substitute. Good luck, Richard Richard Morris Renton, WA ---------- I have a BowTie 700R4 in my R2 Avanti. I used Steeltech's adapter and had no problems at all. If I did it again I would consider the 200R4 for its gear ratios. That being said, if you are running a stock engine and a high ( numerically low ) rear end the 700R4 will give you additional off the line pull that may enhance you're driving experience. IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that the TV cable to carb linkage geometry be dead on. The 700 has gotten a rep of a hard 1-2 shift by those that have swapped them into to Studes. It isn't the trans' gear ratios, but the cable geometry. Just attaching the cable to the carb is not sufficient. My Avanti shifts under light throttle like a luxury sedan. The further down you push the crisper the shift gets. ------------- The 700R4 in my current Suburban is holding out OK, but I did have to have a $2500 rebuild a couple-3 years back. My transmission guy, who is a long-time street rodder, tells me the 700R4 switches the tranny cooler out of the loop when in overdrive. He told me !!!NEVER TOW IN OVERDRIVE!!! I have observed that rule, and have had no trouble since. I think one would be OK with a 700R4 in a GT, as long as you weren't using it for towing or drag racing. Gord Richmond ------- I have been told the same thing about the cooler, Gord, and have always used direct drive whenever the truck is loaded. ---------- I've heard that "no tow" advice from a number of sources. Better to stay with a Flight-O-Matic (or equivalent) in a GT IMNSHO... JT --------- I've been through this drill. In 1995, I renovated my 1970 Avanti II (owned since new) and swapped out the old 350 ci/FMX drivetrain for a new Jasper Class II 350/700R4 combo. I did a lot of research since the 700 was new-ish technology for me. Back then, there wasn't a lot of places you could go for info and the Internet was still coming up. I found that you could get a good rebuild if done right and the only thing you had to seriously respect was the temperature range and cable adjustment. I overengineered my install with extra coolers, deep trans pan, temp sender, etc and haven't had any trouble with the unit, in over 9000 miles now. Performance wise, it was somewhat brute -ish. I've been back and forth with the automatic lockup and dash switch, etc. to gain, yes gain, some rpm However, if I had known the early 80's Avanti II's had a 200-R4, I would have looked a bit further before deciding which one to use. My gripe with the 700, is the gearing. First gear is a 3.06 stump puller and second comes in very quick. Third has a nice spread and fourth is a .070 overdrive, plus you get an extra couple hundred rpm when the lockup occurs. If you could make the trans start off in second, I'd like it a lot better, but it isn't possible. If someone is telling you they can adjust the shift points, it's with the TV cable. The tighter you pull it, the higher the rpm and harder the shift. You don't want too hard a shift, just enough to feel the gearchange. If you can't feel it, the clutches are sliding too much. If it's real hard, you'll get tired of it very quick. You can't make this lockup in anything but 4th, unless you have a computer controlled unit and installing a computer in your car, just for this is cost prohibitive. So, you'll probably be getting a unit that uses a speedo cable, instead of a speed sensor. The Edlbrock (AFB) carb was never engineered for the 700R4, so you'll have to add an adapter kit (From Bowtie OD) to be able to correctly adjust your TV Cable. I installed this and the performance change was absolutely amazing. The kit also requires you to change the TV spring in the valve body (unless Bowtie builds your transmission) They have very good tech support also. Both the 700 and 200 were designed to extract maximum gas mileage from vehicles. They were developed in the late 70's-early 80's. The engines which they were mated to had such a low performance cam, that they could run in 4th/OD at 1200 rpm and the axle ratios were around 2:67. The reason I'd like to try the 200-R4 is because of the gearing. It's much more rational than the 3:06/1:63/1:00 of the 700 unit. Some Stude owners say the 700 does great behind a Stude engine. I've heard Avanti owners rave about the 200. So do the homework before you decide. BTW, if you decide to install a temperature sender, you should put it in the trans pan. The fluid lines to the cooler come right out of the converter circuit, where it gets the hottest and will give a false reading. When the fluid is returned to the transmission, it gets dumped over the internals and then it falls into the pan. You can sometimes find a sender that will fit into the drain plug. jonroq@patriot.net ---------------- ============================================ 200R4 I put a (Phoenix Transmission) 200R4 in our '53 convertible (289) using the Steeltech adaptor. As Mike said, it's smaller, lighter, takes less horsepower to run and has better gearing than the 700. The adaptor works OK with the 200, but did require some clearance grinding. One thing I did run into was a mysterious noise under certain conditions. Then Jim King pointed out the long span between the front engine mounts and the rear transmission mount. The noise went away after I fabricated another support midway. 24-26 highway mpg in a 4000 lb Studebaker and I'm pretty happy. S2DSteve ----------- The 200 is a good trans. I have one built for my street Stude and a high buck one for my Chevy powered Lark. The 200-4R reworked properly will hold up to over 600hp. A 3sp version, the T-200....has held up to over 950hp in a Super Stock Chrysler. The transmission is lighter, smaller, uses less horsepower to run it, has a better gear ratio set. I've run both....hands down pick is the T200-4R...in my opinion! This all is not to say there is anything "really wrong" with the 700....the 200's just better. Scott McClay Engineering does 200's of any type. You can even get different gear ratios thAn stock if you want, trans. brake...yep available.