Tach needle bouncing - Ususally, either the sending unit is good, or it is dead. Most cost effective and first priority, get new points and condenser, set point dwell to specs per manual and check all electrical connections. This cures many tach bounces. If you haven't replaced spark plug wires recently, misfires caused by bad rotor, cap, wires and coil confuse the tach sender. April 2001 jack Vines (jackv@studentambassadors.org) Thought I'd put my $.02 in here... Last fall I replaced the mechanical voltage regulator in my 64 R1 with a electronic unit. As the mechanical regulator had a bypass capacitor on the alternator lead, figured I wouldn't need it with the electronic regulator.. Surprise....! my tach danced around like a cat on a hot tin roof without it.. I hooked the cap back up and no more "wacky tachy" for me... Apparently there is some electrical spiking coming from my alternator, and that was getting into the tach driver and thoroughly confusing it.. (64 R1 R-5157) --------------- I have been driving and keeping my '63 R-2 in top shape for 15 years. In that entire time I have never had problems with the tachometer. Consequently, I must confess to you all that I am almost totally ignorant in this area (we tend to learn from our problems). Here are the symptoms: 1) Remember several months ago when I was wondering if I had a bad ammeter? Well, I decided I did not, but that instead I had a bad connection at one of the ammeter terminals. Since fixing that, the ammeter seems to be functioning correctly. This tach problem is probably totally unrelated, but sometimes these electrical problems are tricky, so I just throw that in for what it is worth. 2) I noticed the symptoms after installing a new electronic voltage regulator today. I rpelaced it because I had overcharging symptoms and an erratic ammeter needle. Both of those symtoms seem to be solved by the new voltage regulator. Now it may be that the tachometer was bouncing around before that, but that I was so focussed on the ammeter needle that I did not notice the tach needle. Yes, after noticing the tach symptoms, I double checked the VR installation to make sure that all connections were correct and tight. 3) The tach needle is very erratic, jumping up and down from low rpm to high in a way that has little relation to actual rpm, except that . . . 4) When the headlights or the stop lights are on, the tach needle stops bouncing around and the readings seem to be more or less what one would expect from a normally functioning tach. OK, what is my problem? A bad sending unit? A bad tach head? Something else? Where do I start? By replacing the sending unit with one of the units from Ed Reynold's Studebaker of California? Is there a way to test the sender unit, the tach head, or the wiring? Is it true I should stop driving the car till this is fixed? Seems like I read someplace you could end up frying something else if you kept driving it. I will look forward to your responses. I remember an article in TW in January of 1980 about Hawk tachometers, but I do not recall seeing one about Studebaker Avanti tachs in either TW of Avanti Magazine. Stan Gundry sgundry@aol.com ---------------------------------- Stan, A first approach would be to check all wiring connections for the tach sending unit, expecially its ground. Beyond that, I'm about as ignorant as you are on the subject. An FYI; the new electronic tach senders usually have to be set to read the correct engine rpm. One I installed in my Hawk reads 1,000 rpm low, but I've been too lazy to adjust it. Thanks, ---------------------------- Stan, You have described the exact situation that I encountered on my R2. I tracked it down to the new electronic voltage regulator that I installed within the old can. Somehow the installation got too close to the edges of the old can and once in a while it shorted out causing the tach to act erratically and the amp meter to go to full charge. Because it was intermittent it was hard to locate. I would recheck the VR installation to be sure there are no shorted wires or parts too near to something that may cause a short. Peter Sant 63R 1653 ----------------------------- If the voltage regulator had a bypass capacitor between the terminals (the capacitor usually a cylindrical looking thing with a wire going to one terminal and the body screwed to another terminal or the chassis), be sure that it was wired as original installation. The capacitor could be bad also? These "63"early voltage regulators had vibrator contacts in them and they make static noise that your tach could be seeing. Carl ----------------------- Yes Chris, you're right.... the new tach sending units must be set to read the correct engine speed... I put one on my car last year, and it reads about 1000 rpms too high.... but I too have been too lazy to crawl under the dash and reset it. Lew ------------------------ You wrote a note requesting a tool to remove bezels from instrument lights. You may also want to put masking or electrical tape around the bezel to protect the wood finish. There is a tool in the latest Eastwood Catalog, Dashboard retaining nut tool, $14.99, part number 3210 that is advertised for what you are needing, if it is the right size. Description is only large and small bezel sizes. You can get catalog by calling 800/820-9042, FAX 610/644-0560 or check out their web site: www.eastwoodco.com from which you can order a catalog. Regards, Tim ------------------------- PC, I don't know if your dash is like mine -- I have a 90. The way I replace bulbs is to remove the cluster by removing the leather "buttons" and the two screws underneath the buttons that hold the cluster to the dash. Then, you have to "dig the bulbs out" of some kind of insulation. In the process, I repainted the bulb sleeves red because they were so faded. In fact, while I was in there, I replaced all the instrument lights so I wouldn't have to disassemble again soon (in theory.) So far, so good. Does this sould like it will work with your dash? Jim Baize --------------------- Greetings Peter: The tool has a different size on each end, so it is one tool. I did get a point of contact at Dana but they haven't been much help yet. They asked me to locate a stamped number on the axle assembly which I could not locate on mine. I am in conversation with Chuck Lampman who is also in the process of working on his rear brakes and axle bearings. He is going to see if he can find the number on his axle housing. Got to hang in there. I would like to find some manufacturer's information on maintenance of rear end. There are many major manufacturers who use the Dana rear end and I hope to find a application that uses the same rear end and get from them some maintenance info if Dana cannot provide it. Thanks for your interest. Will let everyone know if I find out anything useful and would appreciate feedback from any sources. Regards, Tim ----------------------- Peter: Try a cheap spike tightening tool for golf shoes. Put tape over the prongs. The Bulbs plug into the rear of the instruments. Good luck I hope you have teeny tiny hands. Ernest -------------------- Ernest, Do the instruments come out or do you work from under the instrument panel? Keep in mind that my panel is the same as the one in your Anniversary Model LSC. I will buy a spike tool. Peter ------------------------- Question: How do you change burned out instrument bulbs on Kelly coupes? Answer: The instruments slide into the dash from inside the car, and are held in by a U-shaped bracket at the back of each instrument. The center of the U crosses the back of the instrument. The two sides of the U act as legs against the back of the dashboard. There is a bolt coming out of the back of the instrument that runs through the center of the U. It is held by a knurled nut. You change the bulbs by unscrewing the nut. The instrument slides out of the dash into the car. You reverse the procedure when you put it back. It may take small fingers to put the nut back on. But, it can be done without taking the dash apart. PCKing -------------------- Peter I worked from under the panel. I have at times had to change bad instruments which in itsself is a severe job depending upon the instrument. The spike tool may be modified by bending it 90 degrees and opening it with a dremel tool Ernest --------------------- start with the console and take out the entire dash.>> Peter, Doesn't sound fun to me! I like my "remove-two-screws" type instrument cluster removal! Have fun. Jim Baize ---------------------- Ernest, How do I remove the horn button in the steering wheel? I have a Kelly signature wheel. Was a wiring diagram published for the Kelly cars? I have one for the Monte Carlo, but there are differences. The horn, radio, interior lights, and trunk release are on the same circuit. I passed on your comments about replacing bulbs to my friend with the LSC on Long Island. Peter -------------------- Peter The horn button is Press In job, take a flat instrument, Screwdriver, etc and just pry it up. It has one wire attachement for the horn. Ernest --------------------- Remember several weeks ago when I appealed to the list for help on my tachometer problems? The needle was jumping all over the place. Well, it was not a loose connection someplace, it was not the points and condensor (though it was time to replace them), it was not even the sender unit (it appears it is the original and it is still working. The new electronic voltage regulator that I had just installed was the problem. How do I know? Well, I had tried everything except replacing the tach sender. I had even tested the voltage at the battery to see if the VR was putting out too much. That even tested out OK. but acting on a hunch, I decided to install an old mechanical regulator that I knew was OK, and sure enough tach began working properly. So then I decided to reinstall the old electronic VR (I had replaced it because it would intermittently go to discharge for a few seconds). Here again, the tach was OK. so just to be double sure, I reinstalled the new electronic VR, and the tach was back to jumping all over the place. So tomorrow I am off to my favorite autoelectric shop to exchange the defective unit. Just thought you might want to know how this had turned out. Stan Gundry ---------------------- Just as a comment, I have had an electronic voltage regulator on my car (64 R-1) for a few years now and have never had a problem with the tach, BUT I also converted to electronic ignition from Dave Thiebault at the same time...the only way to fly! Maybe the two compliment each other...yeah, right. In any event, I would highly recommend these mods to anyone who drives an Avanti as much as I do. Next stop, Turner front brakes. Russ Farris ----------------------- For those who have converted to electronic ignition - don't forget to occasionally lubricate the weight pivots under the now-no-longer-used points plate. Changing to electronic ignition is not entirely a set-it-and- forget-it affair. Thanks, Chris Altenburg ------------------------- 'm considering going to electronic ignition on my '63 R2. Any advice? I'd also like contact info for Dave Thiebault. Thx, Abbot ----------------------- Russ, I'm with you. 1st, electronic voltage reguator. 2nd, electronic ignition. 3rd, Turner front disk brakes. 4th, dual master brake cylinder. 5th, Air dam attached to the radiator frame, ( at least 20 to 30 degrees cooler on the transmission tunnel and shift lever, and the Avanti temperature never exceeded 185 crossing the Mojave desert at a noon, with the outside temperature of 105 and my airconditioner running full blast ). don hedgepeth R3922 ------------------------ Dave Thibeault, 13 Nick Lane, Maynard, MA, 01754 ( 978 ) 897-3158 don ----------------- Thanks to all those who replied with contact info for Dave Thiebault. Electronic voltage reg. & ignition are on my shopping list. Where is the basic info on the air dam? I've seen references to it on this mailing list, but not the info itself. I have been trying everything to cool off my '63 R2. Flushed the radiator - no improvement. New radiator cores - nope. "water wetter" in with the coolant - Uh Uh. Checked the timing - not that, Put in 160 degree thermostat - about the same... sheez! It stays about 180 when I'm cruising, but idle in traffic for more than 4 minutes and I'm at 220! Hmmmm, the air dam isn't going to help at idle, is it? I guess the next step is to pull the freeze plugs and clean out the block. If there's someone who has done that recently and would like to share their experiences - I'm an interested listener. On another topic - I am still experiencing "surging" (feels like the float bowl is running out of gas, then refills at about a 2 second interval) when I accelerate rapidly, and over about 80 mph. I have rebuilt the fuel pump (new diaphragms & gasket). That seemed to help somewhat. Changed the fuel filter. No improvement. I'm going to put in one of those "see-through" fuel filters, where you can see if there's sediment from the fuel tank clogging things up, but I don't think that's the problem. (Any comments on those?) It just occurred to me that these two problems might be related - could over-heating be causing vapor lock? I think I only experience this "surging" problem when the engine is running hot. The hard fuel line between the fuel filter and the carburetor is where it could get pretty hot... Hmmm, how do insulate the fuel line? Abbot ---------------------------- I just converted mine to electronic although it was so simple I couldn't believe it. Mind you, someone had already taken the dual point Prestolite out and replaced it with the Delco unit so it was just a drop in job. Changed the advance weights, used the medium springs to get the advance curve a little quicker and she runs like a top. That and a set of SplitFire plugs, she pur-r-r-r-rs! -- Keith ----------------- 16Nov03 I decided I'd had enough with points and condensers, so I opted for a Mallory Unilite photo optical breakerless ignition. With tyat installed in the distributor (and the engine purring better than I think I can recall hearing it) the tach was still operating a bit erratically. Next, I bought one of those MSD units and hooked it in. Then I connected the tach sending unit to the tach trigger port on the MSD box. The tach was now totally dead. Then I replaced the radio RF interferance capacator with a new one, since the wire fell out of the old one (time for a replacement for sure) started it up and the tach sprang to life with good accuracy, NO jumping except a little bit at dead idle (it also seems to want to read 1000 RPM when the engine is idling at 575) Now the tach is accurate at all running speeds and there is absolutely no erratic behavior at all. Personally, I think those replacement sender units are a piece of crap, but as long at it can be calibrated for running accuracy I'll live with it. I have an original "square" sender from a 64 GT Hawk around here somewhere and I've toyed with installing it. But since installing the MSD and Unilite ignition I'm a little afraid of hooking it up to the positive side of the coil primary and run the risk of screwing something up! -George- You can test the tach head for function with an ohmmeter. Placing your ohmmeter across the terminals you should gete a reading between 600 - 800K ohms. If your gauge does not move, reverse the polarity or your leads and try again. If you still get no reading, your head is kaput. You're testing for continuity through the head's coil winding and diode. The diode will block DC in one direction but will allow DC to pass in the opposite. Don't know of any way to test the sending unit though. -George- --------- After doing some experimentation and trying out different things, I believe that I have a good solution to the problem I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding erratic tachometer operation using the replacement sender from Studebaker International. It all seems to hang on the purity and strength of the trigger signal. This sending unit seems to have zero tolerance for ragged trigger signals. In my case I had upgraded the ignition systen in my 62' GT Hawk to an optical breakerless system and then added and MSD (multiple spark discharge) unit to the system. This caused the tach to go from erratic operation to no operation. After installing a tach adapter furnished by the company that made the MSD unit, there was still no improvement. However, inside the package was a little tiny diode which it was advised, to install in series of the coil negative (-) circuit to make some tachs work. This did the trick and now my tach is working perfectly - no erratic function, it tracks accurately and sor far, reliably. So, my thinking is: do you need to go out and install a whole new ignition system as I did? No, that would be the equivelant of burning down the house for a piece of toast. My thought is to stop erratic function of the tach. Simply install a similar diode in series with the coil negative. In standard breaker point systems, you keep the tach trigger wire connected to the coil negative, but connect the diode to the negative terminal as well, and the negative wire to the other side of the diode. Remember that diodes are polarity sensitive, so if you do this and either the car won't start or the tach does not work, reverse the polarity of the diode and all should be well. If someone tries this, post a reply and share your experiences. Of course if this idea does not work at all, you can just take the diode out and put it all back the way it originally was. -George- ================== If you call Pertronic technical, they'll give you the Radio Shack part number for the diode, as I recall a 50 volt rating. ==================================== July 2005 I bought a new circuit board for my tachometer. It is the round can that has four terminals on it. The instructions say that the wires are identified as : D wire should be a black wire + wire should be a grey w/black tracer M wire should be a yellow wire GRD wire should be white My canister is hooked up as follows: GRD white wire M yellow wire + grey wire D The canister doesn't have a wire to the D terminal. The space at the D terminal looks new like it has had a connector and wire in place for a long time. If this wire is needed, what gauge wire is it and where does it attach to the distributor? My wiring diagram doesn't show the tachometer wiring. As a note, several times while I have been driving it, the tach needle bounced like it was going to start working but it never did start working. Any help or tidbit of wisdom you can provide will be appreciated.//////////// On an Avanti, it's an 18# black wire; to the "-", (points side), terminal on the coil, from "D" on the sender. The D terminal goes to the negative side of the coil, 18ga is fine. BTW the round can is for Avanti powered cars.