These excerpts have been taken from the Studebaker Newsgroup - This has been an ongoing topic for some time ONLY because the knowledge base is getting thin. Regarding a changeover to 1st gear start, go down to the bottom of the page July 2002 from Mike Dotson. This seems to be the best testimony so far .... /BobJ -------------- 1950-55: DG transmissions - All models 1956: Flight-O-Matic introduced for V8 models. Six cylinder engines still use the DG. Early Flight-O-Matics are first gear start. Later in the model year, valve bodies are modified (twice) for second gear start. First modification changes a spring and this mod is reversible. Second modification is not. 1957: By now, both, v8 and six cylinder engines share the medium case (cast iron) Flight-O-Matic. V8's are second gear start while six cylinders still start in first gear. Valve bodies are interchangeable. 1959 and later: (maybe a year earlier or year later), small aluminum case Flight-O-Matics are used for six cylinder applications. Nothing in these trannies will interchange with the cast Iron medium case V8 trannies. --------------------------------- - Flight - O - Matic - 3 speed automatic, torque converter (Studebaker utilized Detroit Gear tranny(s) from '51 to 1955. ) ----------- 6-cylinder Flight-O-matics are lighter duty than V8 transmissions... 6 cylinder trans start in 1st gear, V8's in 2nd.... ------ Fluid - While using Type F is probably best for the Flightomatic (since it's really a Ford-type transmission), I'll just bet that the Automatic Drive ('50-'55) will be better served with Dexron. The man from whom I bought my last '52 LC in WA, filled the transmission with Type F and it doesn't shift firmly, it clunks. Really kinda disconcerting, 'cause it isn't smooth, it's jerky. --------------- Converters - Check the front of the converter and see what the two letters stamped are. All the Avanti or Powershift converters I've seen have "HR" stamped on them. If it is "FT", then it is a standard Flightomatic. There may be other letters on converters but as I said, "HR'' is the only ones I have seen on the higher stall converters. Standard converters stall at about 1500 and the Powershift about 2200. I was getting almost 3000 out of one with dual blowers on the '51. ------------------ Early cars - To check the tranny fluid you have to pull up the carpet on the passenger side and there is a plate on the transmission hump... open it up, and there is your dip stick... ------------- Flightomatic transmissions were introduced in the model 1956 year and were used for both, six and eight cylinder engines. Exception is that later six cylinder equipped cars used an alluminum case tranny (I don't know the exact model), for the late model Larks. I think that cars using the Chevrolet six also utilized a Flightomatic. ------------------- > However, the original poster was asking about getting a PRND21 shift > pattern and start-in-first, which would imply the C4 aka "Cruise-O-Matic" >Ford transmission -- a different design completely from the Fordomatic, >and IMHO a much better design as well. Since he mentioned wanting this shift >pattern, I referred to the Cruise-O-Matic in my post. By the way, there >are apparently two Fordomatics, or at least two iterations of it. > First, there was a Ford automatic transmission (which I have no certain > evidence was called a Fordomatic, although I think it was) which had the > same exact 1-2 in low, 2-3 in high shifting pattern that the Flight-o-matic > is described as having. Given your info, there's no doubt this is the >same transmission. > Second, there is the Fordomatic transmission in my Falcon. It only has > two gears altogether, and is _dang_ sluggish with a less-than-100-hp > engine. > Both of these transmissions had PRNDL shift patterns.... So, there is > still no way that he could swap a valve body in from a Ford and get a > PRND21 shift pattern. ---------------- .You cannot install a valve body from a 6 cylinder Flightomatic into a V-8 flightomatic. YOU CAN install the whole 6 cylinder tranny behind the 8 and have a weak 1st gear start tranny Or..... you could take the 1st gear start 6 tranny apart and install the extra clutch discs to make as strong as a 8-cylinder Flightomatic But YOU CAN NOT JUST SWITCH VALVE BODIES. You can also swap some springs on some of the tranny's valves given you've got the right tranny and the right springs to do the change. You can also get a late type Borg-warner unit of of some 60s Ramblers and adapt it to Stude use. That'll achieve 1st gear start too. Be warned that most of these "first gear start" schemes will automatically shift you into 2nd at about 7 or 8 mph no matter how hard your floor it. This is hardly what you want. A true first gear start will keep you in 1st up to 25-30 mph if you floor it, and John Metzker (Turning Wheels Tech advisor for ATs) is the only one I know of who has devised a way to achieve this result. I made his modification to my my powershift and I love it. If you have my book, look at p.67 and that will give you the basic idea of the conversion, though by itself it is not enough. The conversion was developed by John Metzker, the AT specialist advisor for TURNING WHEELS. In several of his Co-Operator column answers, he mentioned just enough about the conversionto get me interested, and I persuaded him to walk me through it over the phone as needed. I think he and I have the only Studebaker Avantis with a true first gear start with the Borg-Warner AT. By true first gear start, I mean a first gear start in D that does not invariably shift into second at a predetermined speed of about 5-7mph. If I floor mine, it will stay in first up to 25-30 mph. Here are the basic parts that are needed other than the usual AT rebuild kit: 1) An AMX or model 12 AT from any '67-71 AMC \v-8. 2) The front pump and input shaft from a '60-64 Studebaker AT behind a V-8 and installed in the AMX AT case. 3) The rear pump, governor, oil distributor with tubes, speedometer gear, shift lever, and output shaft from a '63-64 Power-Shift. 4) The tailpiece from any '60-64 Studebaker Flightomatic or Power-Shift. 5) A new AMC vacuum modulator. 6) A Kickdown Switch mounted on the accelerator bellcrank where and OD kickdown switch would normally mount. I have a hunch I am missing some pieces from the Powershift that go into the AMC case, but this gives you the basic idea. Those are the parts that are needed. At least two minor modifications are needed, and how to put it all together is the subject of a long article that someone needs to write, I suppose either John or myself, or perhaps both of us together. But not very many people seem to be interested in this modification, so it is hard to motivated to do it. Stan Gundry ---------------------------- >A while back, SOMEONE told me of a new-type front band for a Flightomatic that >did not require dis-assembling the transmission. You cut off the end of the >old one and slip in the new one. this is a common C-4 repair, check with major suppliers such as Mitchell's Transmission Supply in Jacksonville Florida for your application. -------- ....luckily the auto transmission shop I had doing the work was FMX (FORD) savvy, and that 1971 Cruise-O-Matic became a donor tranny! You got a C-O-M, get a Stude 6 cylinder 1st gear start valve body, and you got a 1st gear start, with the Stude shift pattern! End of story! Aug 2001 -------------------------------- If I remember right, the BW Flightomatic WILL start in low gear from Drive if you floorboard the accelerator. They made the normal start occur in second gear because the 1-2 upshift was too harsh. I have done first gear start in my Wagonaire by flooring the loud pedal. I agree with Ted that the Flightomatic is a good, tough transmission, but I also believe that going to an overdrive automatic with a lock-up convertor will yield a big gain in mileage. There should also be a commensurate improvement in oil consumption, noise, and engine wear and tear. If Studebaker had remained in business, I'm sure they would have adopted an overdrive automatic just as the others did. You have to remember that the Flightomatic was essentially forced on them by Borg-Warner to replace the DG-250 transmission which was technically superior, but too costly to make because of low volume. Had Studebaker agreed to license the DG-250 to Ford, the volume would have high enough that they could have continued making them. We'd have had Fords running around with "stude" transmissions instead of Studes running around with "ford" transmissions. Since the Flightomatic was simply a vendor part that was substantially the same as those used in Brand X cars, I can't get too worked up over swapping in another non-Stude part. The engine is a horse of a different color. As to putting the electromechanical overdrive behind an automatic; I can't see the factory going to the trouble. From a mechanical standpoint it is much simpler to add another planetary gearset and servos to the existing automatic. You already have a governor and oil supply to make it work. If you were to add an overdrive, the Laycock deNormanville OD as used in British cars and in Volvos would be the way to go, as it is hydraulically-operated as used in manual transmissions, and it doesn't need to have the engine killed momentarily to downshift. I don't know if they would handle the torque of a Stude V8, though. If anybody is considering a Champion-based custom, they ought to have a look at the M41 transmission from Volvo. It is a heavy-duty 4 speed with the Laycock overdrive, and the input shaft is nearly identical to that of the T96. You can get either a short stick mounted near the back of the tailshaft, or a long stick that stirs the gears directly through the tranny top cover. Low gear is full synchro, too. There are lots of these to be found in wrecking yards in my neck of the woods. Gord Richmond -------------- Detroit Gear - Power Hawks were only produced in 1956. There were some very early 1956 cars produced with the Studebaker Automatic (Borg Warner "Three Bander"). These transmissions were first used in 1950. Commanders got them right away and Champions later in the year. These were very good transmissions but required a trained mechanic to service and adjust them.Most modern transmision shops screw them up. This transmission was first developed by Studebaker in conjunction with "Detroit Gear Company", which was bought by bigger Borg Warner. Ford needed an automatic and asked Studebaker to share the design. Studebaker said "no" and Ford requested (told) Borg Warner to design a transmission for them. The Fordomatic was pretty well the same design except it did not have a lock up clutch in the torgue converter and used only 2 bands. Many other design changes also such as internal servos instead of servos bolted to the case such as used by the "Three Banders" The lock up clutch inside the torgue converters of the "Three Bander" allowed the engine be coupled directly to the drive shaft when the car was up to speed and virtually idling the transmission. This is now called automatic overdrive in some newer cars. The "Three Bander also had a rear oil pump so when you push started a car, the transmission would get hydraulic pressure from the rear pump which was coupled to the drive shaft. These transmissions had several versions DG(Dtroit Gear) 150,150M,200,200M and finally the best of them all the DG250.In 1953 the Hydramatic" plant of General Motors burned to the ground.This was a brand new state of the art plant. Hudson used the "Hydramatic" and asked Studebaker for the DG transmission. Since George Mason of Nash was already trying to merge Studebaker,Packard, Nash and Hudson into a new"American Motors" banner there was already some parts sharing such as Packard engines in Hudsons and Nashes. Hudson used the DG200 in their 1954 line and these were not designed for the tremendous torque the Hudson engines produced.If you ask a Hudson fan about the Borg Warner transmisions you only get groanes. Borg warner redesigned the "Three Bander" to handle the torque(DG250) and also with Studebaker talking about the larger 1956 engines. Production of 1955 cars was very low and the "Three Bander" was more expensive to build so Studebaker went to "Fordomatic" (Flightomatic) transmissions in 1956 using up the left over Detroit Gear "Three Banders" transmissions mostly in Presidents and trucks. The oil dipstick on the "Three Bander" is on top of the hump on the drivers side.The Flighomatic had its oil level dipstick on the side on the passenger side of the car.The early 1956 cars had holes for both versions of transmissions Hudson went back to "Hydramatic" for 1955 and Packard "Ultramatics" for the Packard powered cars. International ,Jaguar, Mercedes Benz also used the "Three Bander" for a while.Borg Warner moved the tooling to England and continued producing these transmission for their European customer until 1960 I believe. Sorry about the long winded post but I hope this explains the use of the two transmissions in 1956 cars. ------------------------- I don't believe in many additives, however a friend turned me on to a good one this year. The Flightomatic in my 57 is in good working order but developing leaks.....probably as a result of not being driven enough (about 75 miles this year). The product is "JB Automatic Transmisson Conditioner" made by Justice Brothers, Duarte, California. Can sez its to "smooth operation and help prevent leaks".....and it works just great. Note: they also make a heavy duty leak stopper....this is not what I'm talking about....what I use is in an orange can and is more a preventative than "rebuild in a can".....Haha, the can sez "approved for from wheel drive"...approved by who I wonder? Jim Click --------------- Changeover- I've already done a conversion of an FMX. Indeed, there is a lot more work to it than simply installing a valve body. You need to use most of the FMX guts with the Stude input and output shafts. A vacuum modulator is required and you have to adapt the Stude shift linkage. Not a fun job if you haven't done 10 of these a day for a couple of years. The clutches aren't as good as the BW unit but the old brass clutches can't be used in the FMX as the shifts would be too harsh. A shift kit is a nice addition. Total parts amount to about $110 Cdn. excluding a decent FMX core which you can get for $50 at the wreckers. It shifts exactly as a 71 Mustang would do with the FMX tranny. The shifts are programmed of course by the valve body and modified by the shift kit. The FMX is of course a cast iron BorgWarner automatic, exactly the same as the Stude Powershift except having a proper 1st gear start. I had this in R1768 in the early 70's and it was slick as hell. The cast iron Ford tranny bolts right up to your Stude bellhousing which then eliminates the need to dial in the bellhousing to your engine. Keith Books (brooksie1@home.com) July 2001 ----------- In the past, I read that a Ford valve body from a Cruse-O-Matic can be installed into the Borg-Warner transmissions used in the Studes to make it start off in 1st when in drive. I son't know what years work or if any modification are required. ---------- You have to use the Stude input & output shafts as well as the Stude tailshaft housing. You have to leave out the rear pump from the Stude. You have to use the Stude shift linkage. There's no way around the modifications but it is a nice conversion. --------------------- My 63 GT has a HD Flight-o-Matic. If you start in "L" and throw it up in drive and then right back to "L" it goes to second and will hold there 'til you switch it to "D" for third gear. DAN SNOW (DSNOW@FUSE.NET) ------------ I have an FMX ready to go in my R2. It's the second one I have had, the first was in R1768 back in 1974. This one will go into R3719. There are changes you need to make to the FMX but it's not as hard as you might think. I've been talking to Stan Gundry too - he used an AMX variant but it works out about the same. We may co-author an article for AOAI magazine. Keith Brooks Brooksie1@home.com Aug 2001 ------------------ all V8 Flight-O-Matics after the mid 1956 model year were second gear starts except for trucks..... ------------------------ SOURCES FOR 1st Gear Start transmissions Trucks with 1st gear start automatics were: 5E13 1960 Transtar 1 ton Dually 7E7 1962 Champ 1/2 ton short bed 8E12 1964 Champ 3/4 ton Long bed Lark VIII Regal Deluxe 4dr 1959 W6 plus: Early 1956 model year v8 All six cylinders ------------------ Cruise(-Matics on the other hand are first gear start with PNRD21 shift patterns whether on the column or floor. ---------------------------------------- I don't think that I would use Type F in the Detroit Gear tranny but a good synthetic might be in order as long as the unit is working ok and not leaking. Synthetics perform wonderfully in hot/cold weather and extend transmission life indefinitely. Type F works great in the Flight-O-Matics though, (1956-66).- JETman Dec01 ---------------- July 2002 from Mike Dotson-- Mike Dotson ATR Hi everyone. I have noticed people talking about the first gear take off valve bodys I have been selling on E-Bay. The above statments could not be further from the truth. I have been converting Studebaker automatics to take off in first gear for 30 years. Every Studebaker I have owned I do this to. The Valve body I have on E-Bay rite now will make a Studebaker Cast Iron transmission take off in first gear WITHOUT a sprag. The key is to use a valve body with a 1-2 shift valve. These are hard to find but that is what it takes. I am confused about the shift out at 7 MPH at full throttle? Maybe with the throttle preasure rod disconected. Mine (are) adjusted so they go in to 3rd at 25 with Light throttle (and) will stay in first (until) 30-40(mph) floored. There are no Ford Cruisomatics Valve bodys you can just bolt on that I have ever found except some real early ones in the late fiftys that had the rite number of selector positions. I noticed someone said that you could use a FMX by changing the input shaft. What about the output shaft? It's wrong too. Or the fact there is no throttle pressure on Fords. They use a Vacuum modulator. Off course your shifter will be real weard as there are too many digets and they are backwards. Ramblers? There are a few that will work but they are harder to find than a Studebaker Valve body. Also many Rambler cast iron transmissions use the T-35 Type valve body. About putting a 6 cylinder transmission behind a V8 makes a weak transmission. If you use one from a 1959-1960 there is not one part different except the valve body on these years and they make a excellent change. They have the same amount of clutches as the V8. I have tried every way to convert to first gear take off and the factory valve body for this is the best and easiest way to go. If you have any questions about anything I have on E-Bay feel free to ask. I do not use My E-Bay customers as a test and have a lot of happy poeple out there. Studebaker and Mercedes transmissions have been my business for many decades. Thank You for listening. Mike at ATR ATR_1@msn.com (Mike Dotson) ------- The taxi/police cars used a first gear start. A long time ago I converted a couple standard FlightOMatic to the taxi version for customers. From what I recall the change only involved a few parts, so I took a quick look at the parts manual. Here are the differences between the standard (AS10-5P) and the taxi version (AS12-7A) AS10-5P AS12-7A Sun gear 1541187 1542985 Control valve 1545458 1545461 Governor 1545491 1545492 Regulator 1541701 1543079 The PowerShift (AS2-10) has yet again a different set of these parts, as well as a different valve operating lever, and maybe one or two other detail differences. ---------------------------- > ======== Sep 2004 You could either install the 1st gear take off control valve, if Dennis still has any. You could find a transmission out of a 56 V8 Commander, or President (I think both had 1st gear take off in 56 only). Neither of these two options would require a change in the shifter, as the pattern is the same PNDLR. You could find a Ford-O-Matic, or Ford Cruise-O-Matic and change the input and output shafts, but this would require a change in the shifter, as the shift pattern is PRND21, or is it PRND2L? I've done all three of these for several different people. For the most part, I've not gotton any complaints back on the first two options. Well, there was a fella that thought the thing should hold in 1st gear longer then it does, but it will shift at about 15 to 20mph unless you stomp it and at that it will shift at about 25 to 30. It shifts pretty early, but still it does provide a little more peep on take off. The control body is about $350.00 and then you will have to either take it apart and clean it yourself (after sitting on the shelf for 40, or 50 years it is gummed up and stuck), or have a shop do it for you. Takes about a day, letting it soak in B-12 cleaner. The only other problem encountered with 1 and 2 is the short tail shaft. I didn't think about it, but you could change out the tail shaft for the longer style and not contend with 2 piece drive shaft, or just have one built to accomodate it. Someone once told me that the drive shaft for the Y body cars would probably do the trick, but I've never looked at one. The only complaint I got for doing the Ford conversion was the cost to modify and adapt a ford column shifter and the change out on the shafts. Some what of a pain in the rearend and time consuming. Makes for a splendid custom though! Personally, I'd put a power shift in the thing with a floor shift and burn rubber using the manual shift option, or a T-10 4spd and really do it right! Bo (just my humble opin) ------- 1551393 Tran. Assy. Y1, Y3, P3, F3 61V,62V,63V,64V