From: shivanow@pcis.net ( --- Shiva ---) Subject: STARTERS, and problems thereof. Date: 10 Aug 1998 01:34:23 GMT For convince I will define a few terms..just to save typing time and space.. There are 3 different types of starters for the older cars. The differences are apparent, and the problems will also be apparent.. Type 1. We have a starter where the solenoid provides 2 jobs at the same time..The first is providing the battery current to the actual starter motor, and 2, is physically MOVING the bendix into engagement into the flywheel, thereby forcing the starter motor to turn over the gas motor. For convenience here, i will call this a GM type as its mostly used on them.. Type 2. The solenoid IS NOT mounted on the starter motor itself, but is mounted elsewhere on the vehicle. The Solenoid IS STILL the switch to provide the current to turn it over, BUT does not physically throw the bendix into the flywheel.. HOWEVER, in THIS particular model, there is a special field coil, and a mechanical lever that, when current is applied to the starter, this lever has special windings in 1 field coil that PULLS the lever into the hole in the field, thereby engaging the bendix into the flywheel. Commonly used on most older Fords. Type 3. in this starter, the solenoid is mounted elsewhere and is just the current switch. When current is applied to the starter, the starter spins, and the bendix is SPUN out, due to the coarse threading inside the bendix body..SOMETIMES, the bendix is actually 2 pieces in construction and a very heavy spring is bolted between the pieces, and in other cases the bendix is 2 pieces, but are not easily separated.. This type can be EITHER manufactured by Autolite, Prestolite, OR Delco. Also used by Chrysler. So, we get in the car, turn the key, and NOTHING... Diagnosis time. Which of the 3 types starters do you have? lets, assume that the battery cables are ok, the battery is charged and all the grounds are in place... THAT is the first thing to check, irregardless of type. Lets say we have a type 2 OR 3, the inertial throw the bendix out when it spins type..or the normal Ford. Solenoid is either 2 wire, OR 3 wire.. 2 BIG wires, and either 1 or 2 small wires. Common to ALL externally mounted from the starter solenoids is this, ASSUMING NEGATIVE GROUND VEHICLES, for the moment. You have 1 wire from the battery TO the solenoid.. if a 6 volt system, it has to be TWICE the size of a comparable 12 volt. The OTHER big wire goes down and connects to the starter.. 1 SMALL wire comes from the key switch and is HOT ONLY when the key is in the START position. if you got a pushbutton, substitute this for the key start position.. With a friend handy and a test light, unhook the small wire from the solenoid and have friend turn the key/button and attempt to start the vehicle.. Check it with your test light and see if its hot.. this is a yes/no situation. if no, the problem is in the keyswitch/button OR the wiring to it. Wire is hot... turn off the key/button and REconnect the wire.. Test light shows battery voltage on the battery side of the solenoid? Check it.. try turning the key again. DOES the solenoid CLICK? yes/no again.. if NO, then remove the solenoid from the car body, check for corrosion/rust under the mounting area, clean and remount. try again. no click? solenoid is apparently bad. replace. Solenoid DOES CLICK.. Take the test light, and check the starter side of solenoid for voltage. yes/no again. if you HAVE voltage on the starter side, see below, on checking the starter. if NO, then the heavy contacts inside the solenoid are wore out. replace solenoid and see if fixed. IF, and only IF, you have 2 small wires on the solenoid AND its a 12 volt, then sometimes, the second little wire goes to the key side of the coil, and applies a full 12 volts to the coil ONLY WHILE the car is cranking. once it starts, this wire is 'dead'(no 12 volts) and the normal ballast resistor is put into play. (car runs great, but hard to start? Check this wire, if present) If this wire stays hot, you have a mysterious short life on points scenario. For those of you with GM motors, we have the following. Type 1 and CERTAIN model Fords. key does nothing. Now the fun begins, starter/solenoid is down UNDER the exhaust manifold.. maybe you can get to the top/maybe not. We HAVE to have access to the starter if you want to check on the car. HOWEVER you have to get to it, we need to check the battery terminal on the solenoid cap, and the SMALL WIRE on the cap, mounted on the right side at 3 o clock assuming you are looking at the cap from the back.. We have battery voltage at the top of the cap? Cable is not loose? if no, fix these problems. if YES, unhook the small wire at 3 o clock, and have friend attempt to start the car. test light again. Got voltage when key turned to start? yes/no. No means a broken wire somewhere.. yes means hook it back up..while listening/feeling the solenoid, attempt to start again. Do you FEEL/HEAR the solenoid click? NO? Remove the starter and take to a shop.. More later. Solenoid DID click? BUT the starter does not attempt to turn.. Remove and shop time again. So far, we have fixed everything above or TO the solenoid.. now for the starter.. lets for the moment assume a 12 volt starter.. ALL starters I ever seen have 4 brushes 2 hot and 2 ground.. lets take a starter apart.. a GM with the solenoid. Got the starter off, and sitting in a vice with the back up in the air.. there is a small bolt on the 6 o clock position on the solenoid that connects the solenoid into the starter case. remove that small bolt.. there are 2 bolts that hold the solenoid to the case.. remove them. a slight turn gets the solenoid out from under the case. and a spring showed up.. 2 bolts hold the back cover on. remove them. BTW, this is a case that has NO BAND on the back end of the case, about 3/4" wide or so.. this is a 350 chevy type starter of a 70's vintage.but applies to certain other types as well. cover came off, and you are looking at the brush/commutator end. Hows the brushes?? they are mounted in metal and plastic holders and BETTER BE above the metal or plastic. burnt wires? brushes wore down to the metal or plastic where THAT is touching the commutator.. found the problem.. shop time. nothing visible? but had voltage to this point.. SHOP TIME. lets take a Ford OR the type 3, whatever the brand.. We have a BAND of metal on the rear of the case (opposite end of the solenoid) that has to be removed.. you now see the brushes. BEFORE removing the 2 bolts OR 4 screws that hold the back cover plate on, MARK IT, so it can go back the same place.., you MUST find in a Ford the 2 brushes that must be pulled out of their holder in order to get the back plate off, you can pull all 4 out, don't lose the springs. If you have the type 3, removing 2 small screws holding the brush leads in place, will allow you to pull the back cover off. check length of brushes, burnt wires and so forth. GM AND type 3 starters RELY ON a good ground to 2 brushes, gently grab the brush lead and try moving it where its attached to the case.. Gm's are riveted on, and some type 3 are riveted, others are bolted.. Ford Ground brushes are usually welded. if you got this far, you have NOW freed up the field coil case, some older type 3 have screws holding the field coil case to the starter nose. MARK IT, remove the screws and pull the case off. Now you have an armature shaft, standing in the nose end of the housing.. GRAB THE SHAFT of the armature and attempt to move it sideways... HOW MUCH does it wiggle from side to side? IMO, if you can wiggle the commutator end of the shaft MORE THAN 1/2" the nose bushing is wore out, and needs replacing. shop time again. The starter spun OK, but NOT THE MOTOR.. something is wrong in the bendix. GM. has on 'over running clutch' mounted in the bendix head. Supposed to LOCK IT while its trying to start the motor, BUT once it starts, is free spins in the opposite direction, preventing the starter from blowing up, while the bendix is removed from contact with the flywheel. Fords ALSO have over running clutches.. Type 3 MAY HAVE EITHER an overrunning clutch OR a centrifugal clutch. This is unlocked at a certain RPM, dropping the bendix out of the flywheel. IF the clutch in the GM or Ford 'slips' the starter turns, but the motor don't.. Shop time. the Spring connected clutch can break the spring. Shop time. NEXT.. assuming you have a starter that TURNS SLOWLY.. and the battery voltage is correct, load test the battery and its OK, and you determine the problem is in the starter. This applies to ALL TYPES.. #1 problem is the nose bushing in the starter is wore out, and needs replacing.. a 12 volt starter is more forgiving on being loose than a 6 volt.. IMO 6 volt starters require tighter tolerances on the bushings as the load is actually DOUBLE a 12 volt, but the wattage draw is identical. Nose bushings are the # 1 thing to replace. takes care of a LOT of problems right there. #2 problem on ALL starters is the brushes.. wore out, dirty, greasy, loose ground leads, COMMUTATOR is wore down, grooved, burnt segment. and so forth.. BOTH the above are unless you got the tools and parts a starter shop job. # 3, not as common.. the FIELD windings.. burnt, shorted between windings. ALSO a shop job..the OLDER cars had cloth insulation in the fields, and if the car had been WET, rained in, etc, the insulation is probably bad, and it needs new fields. SOME STARTERS- and it takes a good person willing to look, can be 'upgraded' 6 volt coils replaced with HI torque field windings, and/or 12 volt windings and USE THE SAME CASE. its a case by case basis. Example is a 6 volt case with 2 field windings and adding the OTHER 2 windings, making a 4 field case.. 6 volt solenoids, are of a few types.. 3 wire OR 4 wire.. a 3 wire is the same as the one listed above, diagnosed the same.. HOWEVER, there are SOME 3 wire, that to make the solenoid engage, you GROUND the little wire terminal, NOT THE WIRE, BUT the terminal, take a jumper and go to the car body-solenoid engages. This is a 2 coil solenoid, connected internally in a funny way.. there is a 4 wire that's a real pain.. 1 of the small wires goes to the key switch/OR button, and the OTHER is connected to car ground. This solenoid is essentially 2 separate coils in 1 case. Determing which you have, takes a VOM Meter. CORRECT TOOTH ENGAGEMENT in the flywheel... PER GM manual..with the bendix engaged into the flywheel, you should have as clearance between the top of a bendix tooth and a flywheel gullet the thickness of a regular sized paper clip wire.. .015 or so if I remember the wire size.. IF ITS GREATER, you run the risk of chipping off the tops of teeth, if LESS you WILL tear out the nose bushing in the starter QUICKLY, AND also run the risk of breaking some teeth in either the starter bendix OR the flywheel. ======================================= 6 volt starter rebuild August 2003 take the starter in to a place that rebuilds OLD farm tractor starters... have him fix it... needs a bushing and/or a set of fields. never had a 6 V that could NOT be made to turn...PROPERLY. assuming battery, wires, and connections were good ------------------ Rebuild the starter using early 1950s straight 8 GM guts. Made a world of difference in my 6 volt 1955 Commander when hot! ----------------- All that you need is the GM case with four field coils. The "guts" (armature, drive, end plates, etc.) from the Studebaker starter fit. Sometimes you do have to drill a new locater pin hole. The modification does make a big difference on six volt V8 Studebakers. -------------------- I am not into all the tech stuff, I just took the starter to the shop, he said pick it up in 3 days, and I did. He said he used early 1950s stuff from Staight 8 GM 6 volt starters, which did move the cable stud to the outboard side about 30 degrees, which made it easier to put back in on assembly. It cost me $130, and I should have done it years ago! That car never started any better than this on 6-6-1955, the day it came off the assembly line! Sam Automatic Starters are 1/2" longer than Manual shift starters