I know we covered painting in detail several weeks ago, but I am still unclear on one thing, maybe I wasn't paying attention. Is it necessary to completely strip the paint down to the bare fiberglass, or is excellent sanding enough. The paint does have tiny bubbles in it now in several areas, especially the hood. That part we would strip. My main concern is the rest of the car where the paint looks ok. "Experts" here are giving me conflicting information. Roy87LSC --------------------------------- I am no "expert", but *this* may interest you: many years ago I painted = my avanti. Put in lots of work, by the book: sanding, primer, sealer and = about 18 coats of Dupont lacquer, hand rubbed and all. It came out = absolutely stunning, until a few weeks later some bubbles started to = come up. Mostly on the roof and hood. Re-did these areas, but to no = avail: over the years, more bubbles came up, and here is what I found: = these were all occuring were a grey factory coat was lifting off the = fiberglass. Soooooo, even though the experts tell you, as they told me, = that you do'nt have to strip everything down to the fiberglass, that's = the chance that you will be taking!=20 Presently, mine is stripped down to bare fiberglass, waiting until I = have time to take another shot at it.... BTW, i'd be curious to know = what type of paint, primer etc you will be using.=20 Keep us posted, and good luck! Werner --------------------------------- Painting was discussed on a few forums which I frequent. I can't = remember if I posted to this or not, but........ I too, spent a lot of hours (and money) on my car and I do have some = experience with painting. Wound up with the same problem. It was very = disappointing to see this start. So far,it's only occured over the wheel = well, on the driver side fender, inside & out. I attributed it to a = failure on my part to effectively seal that area because of it's exposure = to silicone brake fluid. When that area was being worked on, that very = thought was in mind and it was very thoroughly cleaned (Prep-Sol, Lacquer = thinner, Soap & water) over a period of time before beginning the Primer ( = 2 -stage). The rest of the car was given less attention in that regard = and it remans, virtually exquisite. The finish actually looks 'wet'. =20 Don't know when I'm going to get up the nerve to start scrubbing away = all that work to correct the problem, but you can't hide it. (unless it's = raining) and you can't show the car either... When the time comes, that area will get a good dose of sealer before = the primer. =20 --------------------------------- I am still waiting for some advice on repainting. Under the harsh light of fluorescent bulbs, my Mona Lisa looks like Grandma Moses. I have been told that all the paint must be stripped from a fiber glass body, or the new paint will show cracks in a few years. Is this true or will careful hand sanding bring good results. I am looking for a job to last 20 years with proper care Roy --------------------------------- Mine is going to the body shop Thurs. for a total job. It includes stripping to glass, including under hood and trunk jams and engine compartment,, grinding out all spider and stress cracks and reglassing, replacing a steel patch in the rear quarter with a glass patch made from a mould he will take, re and re the engine and windshield and rear window, paint ice blue with 4 coats of clear, sand and reclear with 4 coats, sand and 3 stage polish clear to show quality mirror finish. Cost $8130 canadian plus our famous GST (tax) @ 7%. I say a 63 split window this guy did it was outstanding. I think the old you get what you pay for should be kept in mind. Cheers Jim 63R2 4 speed --------------------------------- Jim, Can you explain about the "steel patch" in the rear quarter? Also, although I am not a complete purist, why would you go to the great expense and obvious show quality job and not do the original Avanti colour? Just curious. Peter Sant Belleville Ont KOOL R2 63R1653 --------------------------------- Woah, some guys are getting serious paint jobs out there!=20 Since we are on this topic, I'd like to know this group's thoughts about = originality in terms of the color, and how it might affect the value of = the car. =20 Without trying to be an originality freak, I am wondering for example, = other things being equal, would a car re-painted in one of the original = colors be more valuable and/or desirable than in some other, = non-original color? much more valuable?=20 Someone even pointed out to me once that the a modern clear coat paint = would look too glossy on a car of that vintage.=20 Back to the topic of color, does anyone know what original colors were = available for the 63 Studebaker Avantis? And does anyone know of = formulas that could be used to match a modern paint to these originals?=20 Trying to decide: my Avanti was red (before I stripped it), but I like a = darker burgundy... Werner --------------------------------- Peter Couple of things that made my decision Normally when I got into a hobby car it took about 5 to 10 yrs of bit by bit to get things done. Had 2 Healeys and a Porsche 911s. After getting the bodies done finally I sold them within a year to start on the next one. This time I decided to have the work done right away and enjoy the car for 10 years I hope. I don't think from what I know about fiberglass that there is a cheap way to do it and expect it to last. I am sure you have been following some experiences with the group of bubbling and peeling. The car has been around hence the steel patch and other signs of use. The steel patch is a prime example of a cheap job not done right. It takes time and money to have things done right. By the way $1000 is work that I could normally do myself but just don't have the time.Also $900 is for the show quality polish and from what I have seen of his work will be well worth it. As far as the colour is concerned, I am not trying to achieve a concourse car, just one that looks and runs well, and there are nicer paints currently available than the original Avanti ones. The new paints also minimize the crazing problems normally associated with fiberglass bodies but you again have to pay for them. I expect with the cost of the car and what I have to put into it that I will have $20K invested when it is all done. I don't expect to make money but would hope to break even if I ever sell. Don't forget we are talking Can $ here. Cheers Jim- -------------------------------- all: No matter how much money you put into your Avanti, $5,000; $10,000 or even $20,000 you still will have a car that is fun to drive, and in most cases, costs less than walking into a new car dealer and buying something off the lot -- most cars today are in the $20,000 range or more for anything that is a decent driver... So in this light, Avantis, and any Studebaker, for that matter, is a great deal... Lew --------------------------------- Ummm-yea, there was a tip years ago in (perhaps) the aoai quarterly. It delt with drilling a setscrew hole under the ball in the mirror, then runnng a screw into it. One of my cars came with the mod, and it did work. frank R5421 --------------------------------- Well... there's these 70's Camaro mirrors :-) ... mine adjust with a little joystick inside the car. Plus, they have the moving mirror inside a bullet shaped shell, so they don't forget their adjustment when you put a cover on ... --------------------------------- Fiberglass being so porous trape lots of moisture so all wet sanding gets into actual glass it is great for about 3-4 years then if exposed to sun for any length of time will draw moisture through paint hence bubbles appear.and gradualy get worse.one 58 vett painted in 82 is slowley getting worse.other 58 painted in 89 still not to bad but small pinholes starting to develop.63 avant paited in 78 but painted in black witch draws more heat has blissters about 3/8 of a inch in size showing.vetts are on the net at vettepics.com 58 other old 57 is posted as 59 but really a 57 back then there was no bubbles because paint was done at controlled temps and no moisture.gord --------------------------------- All: I think that a lot of the problem with moisture staying in the fiberglass when painting may be due to painting during conditions of high humidity. I stripped, primed, wet sanded and painted my 63 Avanti in 1994, painted in black lacquer. Except for one small, minor area on the edge of the trunk, there have been NO bubbles in the paint..... and often in the summer, the car sits outside in the hottest sun, 90+ degree weather, etc... I don't have a paint booth to control the humidity, but whenever I paint, especially laquer, I wait however long needed for a day when the humidty is low. Seems like that may be the key. When you paint in high humidity conditions, that moisture probably gets trapped in the paint, and eventually will work its way out when heated.... probably as paint bubbles.... The one area near the back edge of the trunk (since fixed) that had bubbles in the paint, was probably, I think, due more to me using a lacquer-based filler (Nitrosan filler) and not letting it dry enough, probably before priming or putting it on too thick.... But otherwise, high heat under several summer's sun has not effected the black paint. Lew --------------------------------- If this reasoning is valid, and it sounds like it is, the cost for the do-it-yourselfer to drape an area of the garage and run one or more dehumidifiers in a home made paint booth until humidity levels are low enough for long enough (how low and for how long remain the questions)to permit a long lasting, bubble-free paint job to be accomplished should more than offset the subsequent expense and aggravation of having to do it over later. Has anyone tried this for effectiveness? --------------------------------- Well, been there , done that. =20 My car was in the garage for 5 years. The only water it saw was when = I wet sanded it while doing the bodywork. When it came to painting, I set = up an 10 mil plastic tent and placed a dehumidifier in it for almost a = week before getting around to the spraying. Still have the bubbles, but = only on that one area. I see a lot of validity in theory (?) that glass absorbs water and will = surface in a proper condition. As I mentioned before, the prospect of inadequately cleaning off = silicone brake fluid has merit, but I believe NOW that if this were the = case, then my problem would be a 'fisheye' effect The 'bubbles on my car, if jabbed with a pin, will produce a tiny bit of = fluid.... /Bob Johnstone --------------------------------- << If this reasoning is valid, and it sounds like it is, the cost for the do-it-yourselfer to drape an area of the garage and run one or more dehumidifiers in a home made paint booth until humidity levels are low enough for long enough (how low and for how long remain the questions)to permit a long lasting, bubble-free paint job to be accomplished should more than offset the subsequent expense and aggravation of having to do it over later. Has anyone tried this for effectiveness? >> Sixteen years ago I did my own paint job--lacquer. After chemically removing all paint, making all repairs, and thoroughly scrubbing the whole car down with Ajax and rinsing with water, I was advised to let it cook in the sun several weeks before priming and to not let the glass get wet. That is what I did. Then I thoroughly wiped the surface down with Prep Sol and let that evaporate out another day or two. Then I primed it, I wetsanded the primer, but by then the pores were sealed. Sixteen years later I have some typical lacquer crazing and cracks at stress points But not a single bubble. Stan Gundry --------------------------------- Yep, you hit it right there!! There's more evidence that it's water, = now that I can think back. It was painted in the garage and never left = being undercover for almost a year. The paint problem didn't show up = until the car was on the road for a while, getting exposed to sunlight, = excessive heat, etc I've been waiting to see if any more shows up, = then we'll decide what to do. Bob J --------------------------------- We saw some bubbling on one of our chapter member's cars at our meeting last weekend. It's a Cafaro (I think) coupe, one of the last ones made. Very nice car, white paint. Has some bubbles on the passenger door. I believe the paint is original, but I don't know for sure. BTW, the car is for sale in our newsletter. Any interested parties can e-mail me for the ad. Kim Miller Puget Sound Chapter --------------------------------- I can't be counted as being in the camp of fiberglass being so porous, [that it] traps a lot of moisture. I've seen too many Corvettes painted and painted one myself (lacquer) where blisters were never a problem. Select Corvettes (36 gal.) had fiberglass gas tanks as well. Studebaker sent out a service bulletin regarding the blisters developing in the paint. I have a copy of this bulletin somewhere. Apparently the primered body was wiped down with a dewaxer and then color coated before the dewaxer completely evaporated. The body (original black paint) of my '63 still shows exactly what the bulletin was talking about. IMO it is a wise investment to have a water trap filter attached to your waist. A two foot quick disconnect air hose from the filter to the gun . All the water droplets that condense while in the air line from the compressor to you are caught right before the gun. Avanti. Jim Frakes --------------------------------- Nick when you painted 63 & 67 had you wet sanded or was there a time period before painting. --------------------------------- When I painted my car 15 years ago, the old paint was striped with chemicals. There was several spots of old body repair which I more or less left alone. I then Jell coated (sorry I can't remember what I used) the whole car. I used lacquer primmer and color coats. Wet sanding the whole way. I had a perfect paint job. Then the next year in spots where their was body work ripples started to appear. They have gotten a little worse every year. The rest of the paint remains good. Martin --------------------------------- << Then the next year in spots where their was body work ripples started to appear. They have gotten a little worse every year. >> There are probably body experts who are more aware of this problem than I. But let me tell you what a Corvette body shop told me back in 1982. They told me to use a product that was called Don Bailley's Corvette Fill and Bonding Adhesive. It had small flecks of shredded lead throughout as a binder. The theory was that this would minimize shrinkage over time of the bondo. I can't say it totally eliminated the problem, but you'd have a hard time 17 years later finding most of the spots that were filled, and I had a few big ones! As the name indicates it can also be used to join panels at the overlap, which I did. It has held up well. I do not know if this product is still available. But here is where it was available back then: The Corvette Shop 23859 Telegraph Road Southfield, MI 48034 ph 313-353-0313 If it is still available, I will use it again. Stan Gundry --------------------------------- There has been quite a bit of info on the list over the past month about painting and priming . As I am getting mine done in the next month or so I am interested in the information, but unfortunately lost the info I had gathered. Is there an email pack rat on the list that might have saved the latest e-mail on painting and priming. I would really appreciate them sending the info to me personally and not through the list. I am particularly interested in the primers that were used successfully. An opinion on the paint bubbles, I worked for a research institution for 34 years, the last 15 doing aircraft composite repair development. We worked with graphite and boron composite materials and one of the major concerns was the long term effect of moisture absorption. The process of absorption is very slow with these modern materials and resins but moisture does eventually cause a degradation in properties resulting in loss of strength due to fracturing of the resin. The fibres are inert to the water it is the resin that eventually breaks down. 1963 resins were not very good, and with the chopped glass fibres there are a lot of wicking points for water to enter and very quickly. The wet sanding process even if the car has been dry for some time introduces water. As I said water will break down the resins and in cold climates freezing causing more damage. The damage will show up as cracks. Don't forget moisture can enter at some points from the interior side also, but to seal completely would be impossible. Trying to dry a body that has absobed water for 30 years with a dehumidifier for a week will not do it. I will suggest to my body shop that prior to the primer application the car be put in the baking oven, possibly over the weekend. I can assure you this will draw water out. The bottom line as I see it is before sealing and painting the fibreglass DRY, DRY. Cheers Jim --------------------------------- Ripplles are anoter problem than moisture trapped in the glass Riples are normally shrinkage in filler. --------------------------------- Has anybody had there avanti stripped with walnut shells it is suppose to be finer than plastic particles.A new shop has just opened here van.bc.ca. I am going next week fore more info.gord --------------------------------- Found out to-day walnut shells are worse than plastic media for fiberglass,will leave a slight potmark on glass,has any body had a good experience with plastic media for there avanti.gord. --------------------------------- That 2 stage spot filler is real nice to work with. You can mix up tablespoon sized blobs and it will set up hard in 10 minutes or so (faster if it is hotter out). Just don't try to put less activator in it to slow down the reaction. Then you get goo that won't set up and you'll be scraping it all off.... All together for everything on a PPG basecoat/clearcoat setup is well over a grand in materials alone..even with deals. It's not primer/color/rub it out anymore... Now it's etch primer/filler/fill primer/epoxy primer/basecoat/clearcoat/servitude And that's not for a fancy color either.... And then there's the cost of the talent to put it all on.... Don't skimp on that part, or all that money is out the window...just ask one who knows. Jeff ( I feel your pain...) Rice AUg 2002 ---------------------- ---------------------------------