NOTE: this file is added to on an occasional basis;; Be sure to read ALL the items in the file for a complete synopsis of the topic Last addition: 17 Oct 2003 The sliding roofs built into Avanti cars over the years are: - up to 79 from American Sunroof: - 79 to 85 from Sky-Top last 12jul00: 22Nov00: Skytop information (moon roof) 1979 - 1987 ******************************************************* (Information) (adding a sunroof to an existing car) -- you are pretty much limited to adding a pop-out or a spoiler kit to your car. Sky-Top supplied power moonroof kits to the factory from 1979 until the end of the Blake era in 1985. The factory installed them in about 90% of the production during that period. Such an installation required the roll bar to be welded to the B pillar below the sunroof housing. NOTE: With the roll bar up against the roof skin on non sunroof equipped cars from the factory, there is just no room to add a fully functioning sliding or sliding/venting moonroof after the car is assembled. Dismembering the B pillar/roll bar and reassembling has never been a recommended procedure (I'd be curious if anyone out there has tried it, or knows of it having been done). Spoiler moonroof kits are available from many sources, and the major manufacturers have franchised installers in most major cities. Names to look for are Webasto, Hollandia (Webasto of (Bavaria) Germany acquired Hollandia of Haarlem, Holland about a year or more ago), and ASC (American Sunroof Corp. of Michigan). Webasto and Hollandia both have operations in the Detroit area, and I believe all three have Web sites which you can search for the nearest installer. There are additional manufacturers, and you can ask if your local auto trim shop has the latest annual issue of Auto Trim News that includes a listing of all aftermarket sunroof manufacturers, their products and sizes, etc. It will be best to ask questions about the kits available to you being able to accommodate the thick Avanti roof skin, since the kits are designed for sheet metal roof installation. Cheers, and good luck. Skytop was sold in 1995 to ?....o Repairs have been done by Klein Auto Works (Skytop) (Route 40 at Orleans and Gay St.) 418 East St. Baltimore MD (410)727 4041 (Ted, Norm) Inner Harbor, Pratt to Gay, left to East St. former East Coast sevice center for SkyTop sunroofs; rundown. John.Michael.Williams@Computer.org Jul 99 Sky-Top (another) Sky-Top Sunroofs, 102 E. Industrial Dr., New Haven, MO 63068, 314/237-5500 (Jul99) 11/11/99 I was recently asked where to obtain parts for Sky-Top sunroofs installed on the last several years of Altman Avantis, on Blake Avantis (and Kelly used some that were left over in Blake's inventory). Sky-Top Sunroofs was bought by Midwest Metal Fabricating of New Haven, Missouri in late 1991. The company is now called Midwest Sunroofs and is located in New Haven, MO. It appears that they no longer have the staff or resources to service customers needs. Parts are now being distributed by a firm in St. Louis that has installed and serviced these sunroofs for a couple of decades. Auto Air Company and Midwest Custom Auto Top is located at 1175 South Kingshighway, St. Louis, MO 63110. Phone (314)534-8080 or FAX (314)534-8488. If you call, ask for Tim Carson, Parts Manager, who can also refer you to a technician if you have a tech question. May 2000 To address your 1984 Avanti sunroof leak, give a call to Auto Air Co./Midwest Custom Auto Top in St. Louis, (314) 534-8080 and ask if they can supply you with a Service Guide and parts you would potentially require. Auto Air is now the national parts distributor for Midwest Sunroofs, Inc., the successor company to Sky-Top Sunroofs Ltd. which supplied the sunroofs to Avanti Motor Corp. at the time your car was built. Auto Air should also be able to refer you to a sunroof installation/service company within reasonable distance to your location in Pennsylvania, where you could get your sunroof repaired. EW (Ernie Wolf) More info I'm glad someone already alerted you to checking the functioning of the drains in the sunroof housing, and I should have thought of that also. Yes, there are four drains in the housing of every sliding panel sunroof, whether made by Sky-Top, Webasto, Hollandia or American Sunroof Co.(ASC). Incidentally, prior to Sky-Top supplying sunroofs to Avanti from the late seventies to 1985, the company used ASC sunroof kits. Sky-Top kits should have an identifying label on the wind deflector, and the name should be molded into the sunshade handle. To check whether the drains are plugged up or not, park the car at an angle from horizontal so that one corner at a time is the low point of the housing pan. Pour some water into the low corner (a soda bottle is handy to use so you don't pour it into the car). See if the water runs out from the bottom. If the water pools, you've identified a problem. You cannot see the rear corner drain holes, but they are there nonetheless and water should run down the rear quarter through drain tubes attached to those nipples. It is unfortunate that Avanti terminated the drain tubes in the hog troughs, the more so since Sky-Top did not know they were doing that. All of our aftermarket installers had specific instructions to terminate the drain tubes outside of the body so they were accessible. (Confession: In 1982 I took no notice of not being able to see the tubes). That's had all of us suffering from more corrosion than we bargained for. When leaves, cigarette butts, or other garbage are in the tubes (I once had a Boy Scout who got kicked out of a meeting for misbehavior put handfuls of gravel into an open sunroof on a Ford Station Wagon!), IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE TO PUT A WIRE DOWN THE TUBE FROM THE TOP, OR TRY TO BLOW DOWN FROM THE TOP WITH AN AIR HOSE. That is most likely to jam things up more. Our recommendation was always to put an air hose on the bottom of the tube and blow up to eject the blocking item -- with proper eye protection if one is watching the top at the same time. I've never had to ferret out the tube from the hog trough, and don't know if it can be done. I guess we should all have extended the tubes out of the hog troughs many years ago (hindsight is always 20/20). I hope that owners replacing hog troughs are doing that, although I don't recall ever seeing that mentioned. Ernest Wolf May 2000 ************************************* 11 Jul 2000 I have an 82 with the electric sunroof. The window moves back and forth but many times it stops. Recycle the switch and it goes again. Sometimes it opens all the way, sometimes it stops 5 times. What is the most likely culprit here. I haven't opened anything up yet. Also, what is the best lubricant for the sunshield. Mine works easy when it is hot but as the temp drops it gets very stiff. Below 40F it is almost impossible to move. The old lubricant is dried out. A little silicone spray helped for a couple of days. ----- I have never had a "Skytop" sunroof apart. I have however taken apart "ASC" sunroofs and moonroofs. The ASC use cables and a fibre worm gear to pull and push the cables. I am not sure what mode the "Skytop" uses to open, maybe, a worm rod but that would not seem feasible unless it were flexible. My thoughts, would be, 1. Lubrication of the drive mechanism which is the most likely culprit. 2. Worn gear drive mechanism which may be present in conjuntion with the first. I do not feel that it is the switch or wiring. I would go with the Lubrication and Worn Gear theory. Ernest Edwards ----------- If the motor runs but the windows does not move then it is the thread block that is stripped. Avanti-X has them.. There is an article in one of the back issues of AOAI that details the repair. Been there done that. My tray was rusted out also and I had to rebuild it. Fun! Good Luck, Carl Tuveson RQB3253 -------------- 12jul00 I suggest you try to obtain a 1982 Sky-Top Service Guide from Auto Air Co. in St. Louis, phone (314) 534-8080. Auto Air is the service parts distributor for Midwest Sunroofs of New Haven, Missouri, the successor company to Sky-Top. You might also try Dan or Betty Booth at Nostalgic Motors in Wixom, MI. Find their ad in the Avanti Magazine. Nostalgic distributed Sky-Top service parts to Avanti owners starting many years ago, and may have some parts and information at hand. The Service Guide has disassembly and reassembly instructions, exploded view diagram of parts, and numbered parts lists. Incidentally, the drive is a center lead screw driving a plastic nut attached to a power bar, and the power bar drives the panel. Good luck, Ernie ------------------- 22Nov00: Avanti Motor Co. chose not to use the standard Sky-Top rear panel seal. Instead they used a seal strip sourced in Germany at the time, as far as I know, through American Sunroof Co. Actually that seal was developed by the Golde Co. in Germany before it was acquired by a huge American conglomerate. You might ask Betty at Nostalgic about that seal, since I gave her some possible source suggestions several years ago. Avanti used that different seal because of the thickness of the fiberglass roof section, compared to the normal sheet metal roof thickness for which the Sky-Top seal extrusion was designed. (BTW, if that seal is completely gone, it may have become unglued and dropped into the back of the housing. Take a look when you remove the glass to attach a new seal). Ernest Wolf ----------------------------------- In 1978 the factory was using sunroof kits from American Sunroof Co., also know as ASC. You will find them in Southgate, Michigan. Phone (313) 246-2725 according to a 1997 industry listing. They should be able to refer you to an aftermarket installation and service point from which you can purchase repair parts. Incidentally, an ASC mechanism, derived from the German Golde kit, has a peripheral cable drive system, compared to the center drive on the Sky-Top kit. --------------------------------------- QUESTION: Anybody got any ideas on how to get the ceiling panel down without wrecking it. My sunshade is so stuck due to the cold temperatures I can't move it. ----------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "ceiling panel", but if it's the headliner, don't even think about taking it down. It's a major job, involving glued leather and fabric, and you're almost sure to destroy something in the process. Besides, you still can't get to what you want! Everything you want to do is done by removing the glass panel itself, a real easy job that takes just a few minutes. Basically you mark their position and then remove the glass stops on either side ( I like to remove the deflector first- two screws and it's out, even though you can work with it in), put a towel over the roof paint in front of the opening, run the glass forward lifting the front edge as you go, til the glass is a couple of inches out of the opening, resting on the towel. Take the screws out of the hinges on each side, and lift out the glass. Then slightly bow the center of the sunshade up in the center til it clears the track on one side, and lift out. Use penetrating oil on the screws for the stops and the deflector for a couple of days first- they'll be rusty, and they break REAL easily. This is a good time to renew the front and rear seals, too, if you want to go that far- and inspect for separation between the glass of the roof panel and the steel bow that's part of the roof mechanism just under the rear edge of the opening (a major source of leaks). Nov 2000 ---------------------------------- Dan Booth at Nostalgic sells the seals- but the factory rear seal is a fabric covered 1/8 inch plastic tube that lasts about a year before the fabric fails from sun exposure, and the tube disappears. I found a dark grey door weatherstrip at Home Depot that worked much better- it's all flexible plastic, with a hollow bead that's about 3/16th inch in diameter, and a flange of about 3/8 width that can be glued to the trailing edge of the glass panel. Looks just like th original, except it's grey plastic instead of black fuzzy fabric. The seal is only part of the problem- it isn't intended to keep all water out. The water should leak past the seal and down the drain tubes in the corners of the box or pan that contains the window mechanism. Most leaks come from separation of the roof panel from the mechanism along the trailing edge of the opening in the roof, with water following a metal brace to the sides outside the box, or from blockage of one of the four drain tubes. Chuck Lampman , at least I was able to copy it from there last November.  However, the pictures and diagrams shown in issue 113 will be missing. Also, Bob Johnstone has placed the full Sky-Top Service Guide on his Web site, and all the parts are illustrated and identified by name.  I should correct a mis-quote attributed to me on page 46 of issue 113.  Sky-Top was sold to Midwest Metal Fabricators, Inc. of New Haven, Missouri and renamed Midwest Sunroofs, Inc.  Auto Air Co./Midwest Custom Auto Top of St. Louis, MO, is a local sunroof installer, and has undertaken the task of distributing service parts for Midwest Sunroofs.  Paul, before you check for mechanical problems that may be causing your '76 Avanti II sunroof to leak, make sure that the four drain tubes leading down from the four housing corners are free of debris that may have found its way into the corners during the past 25 years.  Park the car so that one corner of the roof at a time is the low point and, preferably using a Raymond Loewy designed Coke bottle, pour some water into the housing edge and watch if it comes out of the hog trough where Avanti (unfortunately) led the drain tubes.  If a tube is blocked, you'll have to clear it to solve the leak problem -- not particularly easy since Avanti didn't make the bottom ends of the tubes accessible to blow up with an air hose.  Blowing down may just lodge the obstruction more solidly in the tube (could be leaves or a cigarette butt).  Since you are in San Diego, Paul, you can also help yourself by contacting American Sunroof Co. in Los Angeles.  Look at their Web site at .  The LA operation is run by Chris Prechter, brother of Heinz Prechter who runs the national organization out of Southgate, MI.  As a matter of fact, looking more closely at Chris' Web site I note that they have a location in San Diego.  How lucky can you be? Cheers,  Ernie Feb 2001 No more cables are available for the ASC sunroof, if you have a broken cable, maybe you could find one from a car being parted out in a junk yard with an ASC sunroof. I had a 74 BMW 2002 that had a cable driven sunroof I think the brand was Golde. I found an Audi a few years newer in the junkyard with good cables. If I remember they were a little longer but the plastic ends were the same and they worked fine. The ASC cable design is similar to the Golde. Who copied who? Are the cables similar? ---------- Feb 2001 Who copied who is a good question, for which there IS an answer. In the 60's, Heinz Prechter had gone to school in Germany with the son of Dr. Golde, head of the family that owned Golde Schiebedächer (sunroofs) in Germany. Heinz came to San Francisco to attend San Francisco State U., and found part-time work with a man named Forster who had an automotive shop in San Fran. They imported some Golde sunroof kits from Germany, and Heinz installed them, mostly for local car dealers. After Heinz met George (?, can't think of his last name at the moment, but it is Greek and the guy had a well known custom shop in L.A., fabricating many special vehicles for the movie industry - even set up a popular car museum), Heinz ended up in the L.A. shop doing sunroofs. George introduced him to Ford, and next thing we know Heinz was installing Golde roofs on T-Birds off-line in a shop on Plymouth Avenue in Detroit. Some of you may remember the Ford T-Bird billboards promoting the sunroof equipped car around 1967 or 1968, perhaps even earlier. These were metal panel roofs. With some backing from the Lincoln Division, Heinz developed the first electric moonroof (glass panel) based on the Golde kit, and ASC was off and running. Heinz was a true pioneer, but the cable system ASC used was based on Golde technology. The Golde company was eventually acquired by North American Rockwell, and Rockwell's automotive division became an OE sunroof supplier for cars in Europe and the U.S. I've been out of the industry long enough to not know for sure if the sunroof activity is still part of Rockwell (these conglomerates keep shuffling their card deck), but that may be another source for matching cables. Also, many junk yard residents may have a "Rockwell" roof with salvageable cables. Paul, if your 74 BMW 2002 had a Golde sunroof, it was probably an aftermarket installation. Webasto has traditionally been the OE sunroof supplier for both BMW and Mercedes, since all three companies are in Bavaria. But Webasto also makes cable driven sunroofs, and for all we know Golde and Webasto may have had a common cable supplier if there is some interchangeability. (Webasto has an operation in the Detroit area that includes an aftermarket division). So, just because ASC may not be offering replacement cables for the kits that went into the 70's Avantis, is no reason to give up on trying to repair one of those sunroofs. It is really, really ugly to see one of these beautiful cars with duct tape sealing a sunroof panel. I hope this may be of some help and general interest. Ernie ------------ Q&A -------- It will (very momentary) send power to the motor then no power. The relay works fine and stays engaged so it must be some other problem. ------------------ I had the same problem with my sunroof on my 84. At least it sounds the same. It would move a little bit with each time I would turn the switch on. There is a control box that is in the dash right above the radio, I think it sets on the radio. You can get to by taking the tray out of the dash where the radio speaker was on the early cars. There is a plastic wheel that you turn on this box that controls the amount of current to the roof. I adjusted the wheel until the roof closed with one push of the switch. dgreene944@aol.com sep 2001 I did find the board is the spot you describe. I did adjust the potentiometer from one end to the other and no change. The test light just goes on for a moment then out even without any load on it except the test bulb. Any other ideas? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Trouble shooting (84) dlindner@mac.com I just worked on the SkyTop electrical to see why the test light I attached to the motor connection would momentarily provide power then nothing. The relay on the circuit board would energize and hold. Well apparently that is the problem as the relay breaks power to the motor. I disabled one of the leads that engages the coil on the relay and power is now provided to the motor. My guess is that this will loose the intended overload protection of the circuit board. For now I will reassemble the SkyTop and at least have it working. If anyone can confirm or add input please let me know. It is my Sunday project. My guess now is that there is a malfunction is in the protection part of the circuit itself, thinking there is an overload. I noticed the later SkyTops (the ones with the motor mounted in the trunk and cable driven) do not have the circuit board as in the style in my 84. OTHER INFORMATION: The SkyTop electrical circuit board is located under the dash just to the right side of the radio. I have a schematic and other drawings furnished thanks to Mr. SkyTop, Ernie Wolf (also a member of the Gateway Chapter). The schematic shows and Ernie Wolf indicates a 20 amp. fuse was furnished to Avanti with SkyTop but I find it not to be in the system. Protection is shared with the power window 20 amp. fuse in the fuse block. -- Don Lindner Avanti, 1984 RQB4030 Member Gateway Chapter AOAI dlindner@mac.com ----------------- Adding a sunroof to a current car ======== While you are thinking about whether or not to add a moon roof to your 4 door, explore the Web information available by first accessing the Auto Trim and Restyling News Web site , and from their home page, click on Resources, then click on Industry Links, and scroll down the alpha list while stopping to study what's offered by ASC Inc. , Donmar Enterprises , and Webasto/Hollandia Sunroofs . ASC and Webasto/Hollandia are manufacturers that serve the aftermarket through installing distributors around the country, Donmar is a reseller to installers. Don't know if any of them will sell to a do-it-yourself installer, and personally I would not recommend that. The above Web links should lead you to lists of installers for each supplier, and your local yellow pages should provide that information.. If your four door does have a roll bar, you'll probably want to consider a spoiler roof kit. I've been out of the industry for ten years now, but spoiler kits used to come with both manual and electric drives, and some offered sliding sunshades to keep the San Diego heat out of your interior. The one thing you want to watch for and ask about is the trim ring that is commonly used for "aftermarket" installations. If the kit you choose comes with a U-channel trim ring to finish off the edge of the hole that is cut into the car roof, it will typically be sized to integrate with a sheet metal roof and will not accommodate the thickness of the Avanti's fiberglass reinforced polymer roof. This is where a call to the Avanti factory in Georgia may come in handy as the Kelly/Cafaro operation may have sourced some special parts to use for installations in 4 door Avantis. (I'm surprised to read on the forum exchange on this thread that kits without sunshades were used for those cars!). Of course if the factory does have special trim rings, they'll have to be matched to kits they were designed for. I hope this helps you decide. Ernie Dec 2001 ------------ On the Web I find three places that I know have been doing sunroof/moonroof installations for many years (probably over 20 each), so should be able to help your problem. They are E & G Classic in Columbia, MD, phone (410) 381-4900 Adler & Mandel, Rockville, MD, phone (301) 881-3525 Automotive Concepts, Lutherville, MD (410) 821-1800 If E & G is still run by Rick and Dave Eash, say hello for me (one of their sons may be running it now). I actually saw three locations for Automotive Concepts in Maryland, so you might inquire if another one is closer or more competent to your needs if you call them. It would probably help the forum to learn of the results you get, and what it took to fix your problem. +++++++++++++++++ added here are old FAQ files ( Pre 1998 or so) +++++++++++++++ ///////////// I have an 87 LSC with a sun roof made by Sky Top. The new company that bought them out does not offer the a replacement for the molding that fits along the rear edge of the glass, (according to my Sky Top dealer on Long Island).//////////// Did all later model Avanti's use Sky Tops, and if so does anyone know where I can get a replacement piece. I've had the old one cleaned and reglued and it fits nice and tight, but it's all beat up along the top edge and detracts from the look of the car. Roy ------------------------------------------------ Don: >I saw your message about the thermostat today. I was going to ask you where >the drain hoses are for the Sky Top. The directions say to clean the rear ones >from the hose ends. I just can't seem to find any under the car. Do they go >into the trunk area? >Ray Wheeler ------------------------------------------------- Hi Ray: The 1984 era Sky Top hoses exit thru the hog troughs. I couldn't believe it because of the rusty nature but it is the case. It was a good thought but a bad one too as they can rust both from the inside and outside. There are 4 drain hoses. Will need to clean them from the top. I think I mentioned before a speed o meter cable works well to insure that the lines are open. ------------------------------------ Dear Roy: Did you get all the info on Sky Top? Kelly put a deal together with someone else. The prior Sky Top factory owner is a member of our Gateway Chapter here in St Louis. But 87 would not be a Sky Top. >I have an 87 LSC with a sun roof made by Sky Top. The new company >that bought them out does not offer the a replacement for the molding >that fits along the rear edge of the glass, (according to my Sky Top >dealer on Long Island). > >Did all later model Avanti's use Sky Tops, and if so does anyone know >where I can get a replacement piece. I've had the old one cleaned and >reglued and it fits nice and tight, but it's all beat up along the top edge >and detracts from the look of the car. > >Roy ------------------------------------------- he sun roof on my 87 LSC is clearly a Sky Top. It took 10 days of work but we repaired everything and the car is as dry as the Sahara. It took a lot of effort. First, the frame separated from the roof which is common after all these years, and the weep holes were completely clogged. The first time we prepared to reglue the frame, although we used an epoxy designed for fiberglass/steel, I guess we didn't prepare the finish properly, and we had to redo everything. We couldn't find a replacement for the rear gasket, which is the main water problem area. We carefully clamped and glued it in place and it looks good and holds well. Probably, if I open and close the roof every day, I'll have problems, but I'll just have to refrain from playing with it. We also found that there were many gaps around the windshield, so we gently lifted the rubber around the outside edge, and squeezed sealant all around. Also remember to treat the rain gutters. Water will definitely find its way into the car from the tiniest crack. We carefully placed a bead of sealant along the length of it. Sky Top was bought out by a Missouri company. I will get the name for you. Someone suggested that Sky Top made many of the sun roofs for mid 80's GM cars. It may be possible to find a junker with the parts you need. I think, even though the body is glass, water is the most damaging element to any car, and keeping the inside dry is the most important thing you can do. Roy ----------------------------------- Had my 88 repaired in Aug 1995. It needed a new motor, and the job was done by Atlas Auto Seat Covers, in East Haven, CT. They are the factory service representative for that top. It is not a skytop. Irwin Zagin 88LSC ---------------------------------- Atlanta Service : The shop was owned by a Bob Jurnigan (am not sure of spelling at this time) and I think the name was Atlanta Auto Accessories. The Yellow Pages may help, and if the shop is still alive it will certainly be installing another brand of sunroof at this time. Service parts for Sky-Top sunroofs are being handled by Auto Air Co. of St. Louis (MO), phone # 314-534-8080. I just learned from someone at Auto Air that Midwest Sunroofs (formerly Sky-Top Sunroofs) had changed ownership in the past few months, but Auto Air would be the conduit for any still available parts, if needed ---------------------------------- Apr 2005 Gregg Neubert Bethlehem PA. is an authorized longtime Skytop (now Mid-West) dealer and repair station. ------------ Feb 2006 Lincoln Mark V from the the 1970's used the exact ASC sunroof. If you can find a plexiglass panel it should be a direct replacement. Note: this is NOT the Skytop brand used on later Avanti's. Denny 1 ---------- Feb 2008 Avanti II Skytop rear drains I got everything I needed at Wening Enterprises 1324 Clarkson Clayton Ctr., Ellisville, Mo. 63011-2145 573-237-5500 maxstarkey@sbcglobal.net (Max & nikie Starkey)